G wrote:
Hi L,
You mentioned there was a new translation for the Diamond Sutra that was easier to comprehend than earlier translations.
Is that the translation by Alex Johnson.
Namaste, G.
Reply:
Hi G,
Yes that's the one. Its very good because it is very pure and to the word, without commentary on validity or an interpretation to "digest".
Also did you find Krishnamurti's "Freedom from the Known"? There are remarkable parallels to what is said in the "Diamond". But you have to be able to see between the words. That is to see and be consciously aware (choicelessly without comparison or judgement) of the self as you read.
L
G wrote:
Yes, I ordered "Freedom from the Known" on Amazon.
I see the danger of getting caught up in Zen "dogma" as if that itself is the destination. One must see teachings about Zen as kind of like a diving pool springboard. While the springboard provides support at the beginning of the journey, one must eventually reach a point where the springboard becomes irrelevant.
While googling to find the Alex Johnson information, I ran across information about Norquist. Did you mention him? He's the first individual I've discovered who admits some down sides to being awakened to non-dual perception. He describes non-dual perception as "creepy", not blissful or ecstatic. "It should scare you, the body should react defensively. Or there could be uncontrolled laughter at how stupid you have been for so long. Its like those 3D dot pictures, you stare and stare at until bingo the pictures emerges. After that, you can always see it, you can't unlearn it. The same with enlightenment."
I've always wondered about the consequences of seeing all "reality" as illusion - what sense is there to remain in the illusory world, building cabinets or trading stocks for a living, paying the bills and being married? Sure we know the phrase: "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." But I can't imagine how there is any satisfaction to that. Thoreau said "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation, called resignation it is confirmed desperation." I can more easily imagine that after enlightenment the wood cutter and water carriers continue their tasks in resignation rather than joy.
L's reply:
The problem is we get caught up in "perception" as if it were any different once you have experienced what Norquist seems to be saying. The self perceives from the standpoint of opinion, of position, which creates its own opposition. It seems there is always that element of the self that desires. Desire being the projection of a mind that is caught is self illusion. It is very difficult once you have had a measure of "light" (breakthrough). For me it has always come when I was most vulnerable and on the edge of a psychological meltdown. I think you have to walk to the very edge of the precipice and as you are about to jump, wham it hits you. Then psychologically you live on edge of the that precipice, always aware of the moment. For me all things fall away. I realize total detachment...its like I am walking away from myself (as defined). Dieing to the past and to the future. Its true once you have had the "experiencing" (because its always in the moment) you can never go back...in a manner of speaking you carry it with you through eternity. It is that awakened sense that takes you to a different level of intelligence. Not a higher level of intelligence but different, as in alien to the mind that is caught in illusion. It is not part of the self that knows...it is part of the unknown and therefore undefined.
I will tell you G, it is sometimes very difficult for me to meet with groups of people, because I see myself in others at a time when I was deep in illusion. Its difficult for me to hear them talk because they are so caught up in systems of belief that only lead down the path to further illusion. I have to hold back, because if I say what really needs to be heard, it would destroy some and cause others to become violent (psychologically). I have learned it is best to leave people to their illusion and only offer when asked. You cannot open the door yourself, someone else has to open it. Once it is open then you can comment but you have to consider your audience...what are they capable of handling?
I do try to take it to the edge, but it is very draining. It is sometimes very difficult to be around all the illusion that is projected as the "truth". People are so lost, moving from one teacher to another. Reading book after book. Repeating all the nonsense that they have been exposed to. They must find the original within and let all the nonsense of those who are a so called authority go. All it does is create confusion, conflict and the fear of not knowing. When in fact thinking that you know is the problem!
L.
G wrote back:
I can appreciate that listening to people in our group sessions can be frustrating. Even for me not coming from the same place as you are, I often wince as I hear people asserting beliefs that are very small, opinionated and limiting.
Norquist says some of the same things that you do, and expresses some of the same frustrations. But, being dissatisfied with the world and people in it who seem to willfully choose illusion, must at some level be perceiving the world form a standpoint of opinion. How does one get away from that? I know I find it difficult to not judge those people who a wrapped up in some complex belief system that actually prevents them form making any progress.
I doubt that I'd ever be willing to take on the teaching tasks of a Bodhisattva.
L's reply:
You can never "get away" from the self that is born in the duality of a conditioned consciousness. One remains in the world of illusion to be functionally existent. The difference is that you become consciously aware of the defined self, not from the standpoint of a judgemental process, but rather simple choiceless observation (awareness) of the one who chooses. This creates an atmosphere in which freedom is a possibility. Then there is a dissipation of the minds propensity to speak and act from a position or opinion. Opinion is the result of past experience, which is the "monkey brain" intelligence of a conditioned mind.
To observe a person who speaks from the illusion of a self that thinks it knows, does not imply that you are caught in a judgemental process. Instead what comes forth is a spontaneous (new and never before) ability to see the truth of the moment, which is always a reality that is absent the elemental illusion of time/space. Which oddly enough erases the notion of right and wrong, good and bad, me and the other. In other words the total collapse of all notions of duality. When one speaks, it appears to be a simple stated opinion to the uninitiated. But it may subtly affect them in ways they cannot comprehend or even consciously realize. They change in that moment and move in a direction that they would not have. Depending on their mind set, what is said may be upsetting or disturbing to them because it speaks to the suppressed "Buddha Nature" that is buried within. It plants a seed of doubt.
On the Bodhisattva:
Ha! to laugh! You have no choice, once you have realized, its out of you hands...to live is to teach. Its something within, that once awakened cannot be suppressed. I have tried to move away from it at different times in my life. But it always brings me back, sometimes in the most psychologically disturbing ways.
Its really a process, that once started continues to evolve, no matter what you are doing or where you are doing it.
L
G wrote back:
This makes far more sense than the complex schemes that I see proposed as explanations of the inner workings of reality. After I've absorbed Johnson's Diamond Sutra and Krishnamurti's book, I'd like to have another chat with you.
G.
